Monday, 6 November 2017

Meal consumed raw (meat and eggs) does not require insulin at all


Summary

Based on experience of few people below, for diabetics:

Eating raw food (meat and eggs) is helpful 

Eating raw food (meat and eggs) required no insulin at all, whereas eating same meal cooked required the diabetic to inject insulin. This has been the experience of many people, not just one person. 

"the more cooked something is, the harder it generally is to digest, the more stomach enzymes it will take to process."

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My observations: When I have cooked eggs (e.g. omelette), I feel hunger shortly after having the omelette, say 30 mins or 1 hour later. However, when I have raw eggs, I don't feel hungry.

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Eating less number of meals and in restricted time window is helpful for diabetics (Intermittent Fasting - IF)

Eating 2 meals in 4 hours window compared to 3 meals in 8 hour window helped keep blood sugar level stable requiring less insulin. 

Intermittent Fasting by eating at 9am and then at 2pm was also helpful to another person. Eating after 8pm leads to 'roller coaster' at night. 

As per another user "nothing has worked better then Zero Carb with Intermittent Fasting 20:4 - two moderate protein/low-moderate fat meals on each end of my eating window."

"Even before going low carb, I realized fasting helps me feel better"

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My observations: The concept of 'breakfast' was quite rare during my grandparents time. My grandparents (both on father's side and mother's side) hardly had any breakfast. It was mostly workers who worked in the fields and did daily chores had breakfast which was typically fermented rice made with the previous night's rice and water. They had an onion or chilly along with the rice.

I read that even among the french, breakfast is not such a common meal. They may have a small piece of bread with butter. Their meals are focused on 2 meals a day - lunch and dinner.

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Alex Quinn to Principia Carnivora
at to maintain stable bg. But 12 oz slow cooked brisket takes 2 or 3 units and hits my system about 5 to 6 hours later. My normal breakfast of 4 eggs cooked in butter takes 1/2 unit an hour later. That same meal consumed raw does not require insulin at all. Why is cooked meat more insulinogenic than raw? Why does the cooking time also affect the digestion time? I'm looking for actual, scientific information, not just anecdotal opinions. Thanks.
Comments
Chris Divito Rebecca Dhaliwal Alex, I cannot tell you why, but I have noticed the same thing. I asked my doctor and endo, but they said they do not know why it would be happening. I have also noticed a huge difference between eating three meals a day spread out over 8-10 hours compared to 2 meals in a four hour eating window. I get more stable, lower blood sugars using less insulin when I eat within a restricted time frame.
Alex Quinn IF makes a big difference for me, too. I usually eat at 9am and again at 2pm. I absolutely cannot eat any later than 8pm or I will roller coaster all night long.
Alex Quinn I'm glad I'm not the only one. Most of my other diabetic resources eat a more keto style meal plan with a ton of foods I can't tolerate. So hard to find the answers I'm looking for because no one seems to know.
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Chris Divito Rebecca Dhaliwal I hear you Alex, almost all the information is geared to T2's with the caveat of this is not for T1's. Although there may be only a few of us here, the people in this FB group know what's what when it comes to nutrition and health. I have learned a ton here and continue to each day. The T1 FB groups are just about useless unless you want to bitch and whine about how diabetes has ruined your life while shoving carbs in your face and wondering why you keep on going high and low so much. I have been booted out of two of them for speaking about what I eat and the success I have had, refused entry into typeonegrit when I said I eat a carnivore diet and left one due to the reasons I first stated.

I am attempting right now to do just carnivore without a restricted eating window but I can say after three days I am having to use two to three times the insulin and my blood sugar average has gone from 5.7(using 10-14units/day)to 7.8(using 28 units/day). I will try for another week or so to see if it levels out but so far after Dr. Bernstein's protocol, LCHF, Paleo, Keto, Primal(80% raw) Keto and now Carnivore; nothing has worked better then Zero Carb with IF 20:4 - two mod protein/low-mod fat meals on each end of my eating window.

Penelope Paisley Rosemarie: you may already know this, but if not, IF is Intermittent Fasting, using meaning eating 1 or 2 meals per day within a limited time window
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Alex Quinn Man, the only diabetes groups I participate in are Type1Grit and an emotional support group I started for low carb diabetics. I can't stand any of the others. I don't want to listen to you bitch that you went low, ate the entire kitchen and now you're 400 and feel gross. You are mismanaging your diabetes based on poor information and suffering the consequences. I did that for 20 years and then realized how very wrong I was and have been educating myself since. THINK FOR YOURSELF. Bah! Anyway... back to the issue at hand... It's interesting that the limited eating window makes such a difference for you. I've always found, even before going low carb and following Bernstein's management techniques, that fasting helps me feel better.

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November 3 at 2:10am
Chris Divito Rebecca Dhaliwal Glad to know I am not the only one who noticed. Like I said the four hour window worked great, but the folks over at Zero Carb Health claim fasting is harmful and does not work. Also that I will get the same results or better by just eating meat and not fasting. I will be able to tell you how that turns out a month from now. So far not good, but I will give it a chance to work.
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Debra Nelson Chris Divito Rebecca Dhaliwal that’s interesting. LCHF I was using 13 units a day and Zero Carb I use 23-26 units a day. I feel amazing but it is interesting to have insulin increase that much.

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November 3 at 8:35am
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Alex Quinn Debra Nelson How long have you been zc?
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Alex Quinn And do you eat dairy?
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Debra Nelson Alex Quinn I have been ZC 2.5 years. I occasionally eat a cheese omelet. Dairy is an inflammatory food and gives me sinus pressure. I don’t like that so I eat cheese sparingly.

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November 3 at 6:40pm
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Alex Quinn Debra Nelson I can't remember if I've asked you this before, but what insulin delivery methods do you use? I'm MDI with Tresiba, Humalog and Humulin R. How do you bolus for meals? Do you find the majority of your insulin use comes from basal?
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Debra Nelson Alex Quinn I use a Medtronic pump with Novolog insulin. Will be switching to R this month. I eat bacon and eggs every morning (count as 5 carbs bolus), 8-16 ounces of meat (bolus 8-16 carbs) if I have steak or beef roast I will dual wave for 4 hours. Dinner is the same as lunch.

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November 3 at 8:45pm
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John Cunningham Cooking starts the denaturing of proteins which leads to more complete digestion into amino acids and absorption into the bloodstream.
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Alex Quinn So eating raw means you actually absorb less of the nutrients and that's why it takes less insulin?
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Alex Quinn That also doesn't explain why it takes longer to digest when it is cooked longer.
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John Cunningham GNG onset rate and total protein load need to be considered. The first coverts protein to glucose which increases insulin need 1.5 to 2x. The second affects how much protein spills into the urine giving it that bubbly, frothy look. Also fat is on the meat and cooking has an effect on that. Fat creates temporary physiological insulin resistance.

Your equation of steak to protein is invalid.

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Alexander Reime Kühn I don`t know the since behind it. But iam doing better on raw meat.. and it digests easier and faster than cooked meat. In my case.
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Justeen Pedersen More nutrients absorbed means takes longer to digest. Body has more stuff to work with
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Alex Quinn John Cunningham My example of steak was just that, an example. The cooking process affecting my insulin needs and digestion time applies to any protein food. Red meat, chicken, fish, eggs, pork (although I don't eat fresh pork). The longer its cooked, the longer it takes me to digest and the more insulin it requires.
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Russ Scala Cooking,, starts the breakdown of amino acids
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Alex Quinn Okay I know that. However, I want to know why that affects insulin needs as well as digestion time.
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Emiliano Lucífero I can share some observations, hope it helps. 
The more I cook meat, the sweeter it tastes. I think it becomes less of a perfect protein and closer to become glucose somehow.
What are your reactions to fatty meats?

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Alex Quinn In what respect? Blood glucose response, digestion time, overall satiety? 

In general, the fattier the meat, the more nauseated I become. I have gastroparesis and a very impaired digestion process. Fatty stuff, especially fatty cuts that have been cooked longer just sit like a lead ball, take forever to digest and spike my bg badly once they do finally hit.

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Emiliano Lucífero Alex Quinn I meant BG response, yes.

Fat cooked longer also becomes sweeter. It is not the fat dough, it is the overcooked membranes around. I would invest my efforts into training my fat digestion. Increasing fat content over time, perhaps try to lower insulin to the minimum...

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Alex Quinn The fattier it is, the longer it takes to digest. I also find that I get nauseated from too much fat, but hours later. Like 8 or 9 hours I'll get hit with this awful feeling and usually vomit. I avoid super fatty stuff now for that reason and take digestive enzymes to aid the process.

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November 3 at 9:21am
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John Cunningham Another way of looking at it is eating 12 oz cooked meat may have the same effect as eating 20 oz raw, since cooked meat delivers more calories. Maybe you could find the exact equivalence where the insulin profile is equal.
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Gabor Erdosi The speed of absorption has a strong influence on hormonal responses. That’s exactly the problem with processed carbs and, although to a lesser extent, with pre-digested protein as well. There is one more step in this process though and that’s complete or partial hydrolysis. Try a whey protein hydrolizate and you’ll see the effect.
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Alex Quinn From where did this diagram come? I would like to see more about this. Google search?
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Alex Quinn Whey protein spikes my blood sugar in the worst way! Can't do it at all. Can't eat dairy at all, for that matter...
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Chris Divito Rebecca Dhaliwal Could be Dr. Layman but I think it was from Dr. Stuart Phillips. They both have good lectures on YT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1brVrvxN4E&t=176s


By Dr. Stuart M. Phillips at Benefiq…
YOUTUBE.COM
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Gabor Erdosi Alex Quinn 
I believe it’s Figure 5 from this study.
Comparison of Different Sources and Degrees of Hydrolysis of Dietary Protein: Effect on Plasma Amino Acids, Dipeptides, and Insulin Responses in Human Subjects

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf101912n


Comparison of Different Sources and Degrees…
PUBS.ACS.ORG

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November 3 at 1:21am
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Stephanie Joyce Winter Alex Quinn you are a trailblazer

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November 3 at 1:22am
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Marty Kendall https://optimisingnutrition.com/food-insulin-index/

optimise your food choices using the food insulin index
OPTIMISINGNUTRITION.COM

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November 3 at 1:46am
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Marty Kendall https://optimisingnutrition.com/type-1-diabetes/

optimise your insulin dosing and food choices for normal blood sugar levels
OPTIMISINGNUTRITION.COM

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November 3 at 1:46am
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Gregg Sheehan I cannot enlighten you but I am interested in what you are discovering.

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November 3 at 2:18am
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Gregg Sheehan But if you can eat 4 raw eggs and a little butter without needing insulin, doesn't this mean that a life on raw eggs might just be the healthiest option. After all, wasn't there a little old lady who lived to 117 recently on a lifetime of about 3 eggs a day only?

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November 3 at 2:22am
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Joel Nieminen Westerhult She ate chicken aswell.

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November 3 at 2:23am
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Gregg Sheehan Which came first? 

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November 3 at 2:23am
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Alex Quinn Mm... to meet my protein requirements I'd need to eat at least 15 eggs per day. Somehow that just doesn't sound appealing.
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Gregg Sheehan Depends on whether you are eating for fuel or entertainment 
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Alex Quinn No, I meant like that would make me feel sick. I've tried eating just eggs. After a few days, I start to get extremely nauseated

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November 3 at 9:14am
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Leigh Frost Again, not nutritional facts as such, but the more cooked something is, the harder it generally is, the more stomach enzymes it will take to process. I found this when trying to follow Paul mckenna. The more chewy a food, the more satiated you generally feel.
Alex Quinn Paul McKenna?
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Leigh Frost British hypnotist. Very famous. Kind of our Anthony Robbins. Did a TV series and a book called I can make you thin
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Raymund Edwards In a first-of-its-kind study, Harvard researchers have shown that cooked meat provides more energy than raw meat, a finding that challenges the current food labeling system and suggests humans are evolutionarily adapted to take advantage of the benefits of cooking.

https://news.harvard.edu/.../2011/11/why-cooking-counts/


In a first-of-its-kind study, Harvard researchers have shown that cooked meat provides more energy than…
NEWS.HARVARD.EDU

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November 3 at 8:00am
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Alex Quinn Interesting. I'll have to look into this more

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November 3 at 9:27am
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Raymund Edwards Alex more energy means more insulin need 

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November 3 at 9:28amEdited
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Alex Quinn That makes sense

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November 3 at 9:29am
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Raymund Edwards Also as humans we have a species of gut flora specially adapted to cooked meat

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November 3 at 8:01am
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Ken Henriques humans are not mice. this study is useless . just laboratory bullsh-t.
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Daniel Abato thank you for posting this, very intersting!!
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Alex Quinn Yes! It fascinates me, too!
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Carol Scott Very informative thread. It’s really inspired me to improve my glucose control further. In the comments section on one of the optimising nutrition links, Chris Divito mentions Csaba Tóth so I looked him up: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/.../ostracised-medical.../

We speak to Dr Csaba Tóth about the success and controversy of the paleo keto diet in people with new-onset type 1 diabetes.
DIABETES.CO.UK

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November 3 at 8:06pm
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Alex Quinn This is why I follow Dr Bernsteins methods. He's an outlier in the medical community, too, but the success he has achieved along with his patients is proof enough that it works. I went from an a1c of 6.9, total daily insulin doses over 100 units, sick all the time, severe gastroparesis, retinopathy in both eyes and the beginnings of neuropathy in my extremities, all while being told I was doing just fine by the medical community... and I must say that all of that at age 25 is NOT fine by ANY stretch if the imagination. Now my a1c has been between 4.9 and 5.3 for 2 years. All of my diabetic complications have improved. All of them. I rarely see over 150 mg/do anymore, and when I do, I know how to treat it back down to normal range. I did all of this without the help of a single doctor on my med team. In fact, they all told me I was harming myself by attempting these things. My last end even looked me in the eye after I asked a question about how to bolus for proteins and said, "you'll just have to figure it out!" Then got up and left the room. She was... uh... less than helpful. I don't trust the medical establishment one bit to help me. Following their guidelines and advice was literally killing me.

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November 3 at 8:28pm
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Carol Scott Yes tell me about it! It’s the same story here in the UK. My current hba1c is around 6% on ZC so I need tighter control. I’ve just started IF again as a start but I’m very motivated and hopeful I can get in the 5% club at least 😄

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November 3 at 8:46pm
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Gregg Sheehan Csaba is a member of this group. I'm sure he will chip in if you have a question.

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