Tuesday, 18 July 2017

Blood pressure and salt




Hi all, my father is 61 years old and suffering from high blood pressure. He is on medication, is meditating regularly and exercises every day (running, cycling or kayaking).He eats relatively healthy (as in following the current dietary guidelines...). The meditation has really helped him become more calmed, because he was often stressed out. However, despite these lifestyle changes, his blood pressure is still high, and I'm worried for him. Is there anything else we should investigate regarding his health or watch out for? Have any of you had your blood pressure reduced through zero carb or keto diets? I haven't found any substantial information on the subject matter. Personally, I have experienced benefits from zero carb, but I actually have very low blood pressure and I haven't seen any improvement in that regard.
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Kim McAughey Kline I was on blood pressure medication and am off it now due to my vlc/zc diet.
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July 15 at 12:58am
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Jared Kellberg https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/ - an entire sub Reddit dedicated to low carb science. Enjoy 
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July 15 at 1:23amEdited
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Dustin Dowd Was on Atenolol for high blood pressure off it with in 2 months after ZC.
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July 15 at 2:08am
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Ariane Hélène That's great thanks for sharing 
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July 15 at 2:30am
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Amy Menke My blood pressure has been low my whole life (90's/50's). ZC has not changed this at all. And if I fast beyond 24 hours, it drops to 80's/40's and I feel horrible.
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July 15 at 2:12am
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Michael Frieze Kayla has low blood pressure as well. Its always about the same as yours Amy Menke. This has always been true even before she has gone ZC.
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July 15 at 2:14am
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Gregg Sheehan I like Dr Malcolm Kendrick's take on it: https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/.../does-treating-high.../
Does treating high blood pressure do any good?
Although I am most interested in the medical madness…
DRMALCOLMKENDRICK.ORG
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July 15 at 2:18am
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John Walker Good article. What I would like to know is: what is the relative importance between the 5 factors considered when diagnosing "Metabolic Syndrome"? These are waist measurement, blood pressure, HDL, blood sugar and triglycerides. Other factors in cardiov...See More
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July 15 at 3:41am
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Gregg Sheehan I think, from what I've read, is that the TG/HDL-C is probably the best ratio indicating whether someone is insulin resistant or not. I also think that insulin resistance/sensitivity is the most important factor to control in one's metabolic health. (I...See More
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July 15 at 12:19pm
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Gregg Sheehan You must be careful about salt - as in DON'T reduce it. You will have a higher mortality if you have less than 2100 mg of sodium per day. The current dietary guidelines to reduce saturated fat, red meat, and salt, while increasing whole grains and vegetable oils have all resulted in more obesity, diabetes, cancer, dementia, autoimmune diseases and the rest of the diseases of civilisation. Most of us have achieved health by ignoring the dietary guidelines. A key to good health is also making sure you have plenty of sunshine and reducing stress. I'm 63 and my unmedicated blood pressure in the morning when I get up is typically around 118/78. I have been known to get high blood pressure in times of stress, but I avoid those and play golf whenever possible.
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July 15 at 2:27am
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Ariane Hélène Thanks I've also read that reducing salt intake is actually detrimental according to the newest science...
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ReplyJuly 15 at 2:29am
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Michael Frieze Do you think that number "2100mg" is absolute for every human being? I just don't see how you can come to that conclusion. 

Please don't think I am recommending people reduce salt in their diet. I just don't agree that it leads to a higher mortality. If anything, it has led to a better standard of living for myself over the years. I know some of us long term ZC must be some sort of special snowflakes or perhaps we will feel our ignorance at old age, but I don't find the probability of that situation to be all that high. 

Bear had health issues later in life, but that was throat cancer related to a sexually transmitted disease. Nothing to do with low sodium. He was in his 70's and still not consuming salt. Of course, this is purely anecdotal. 

Can you give me the references to your claims? I want to really give it some thought.
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July 16 at 12:21pmEdited
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Michael Frieze Also, my blood pressure is about the same as yours and I don't consume salt. This is after at least 6 years. I mean, after 6 years there must be some sort of signs that I should be eating salts, but I am just not seeing them. 

The no salt thing isn't some ideology that I have subscribed to. I honestly just son't see the point. My body seems to be happy without the added sodium.
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July 15 at 2:37amEdited
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Lynda Raina Apparently salt is stored in our skin so do you get any salt externally? Like by swimming in the sea? The salt in our skin is supposed to protect us from skin infections, if we cut ourselves. Have you had any skin infections?
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ReplyJuly 15 at 4:08am
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Michael Frieze I live in michigan. I don't swim at all really.
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July 15 at 4:12am
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Michael Frieze I havn't had any sort of skin infection for years.
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July 15 at 4:12am
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Michael Frieze The best part of not adding salt in my opinion is that when I run and sweat, I don't stain my clothes. Also, I don't really get any body odor although I heard that was a genetic thing. 

My sweat also does not taste salty. IF I eat salt, my sweat taste really salty and gross.
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July 15 at 4:13am
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Michael Frieze I just don't like the way salt makes my body feel. I feel heavier and a little bit lethargic after I eat it.
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July 15 at 4:14amEdited
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Bharath Rao Michael Frieze The stain from sweat actually comes from broken down red blood cells, same as urine.
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July 15 at 6:49am
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Michael Frieze That is strange, because as soon as I eat salt, my clothes stain from my sweat.
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July 15 at 6:52am
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Gregg Sheehan "The 2015-2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommends limiting sodium intake to 2,300 milligrams a day for healthy people. For the study, the researchers followed 2,632 men and women ages 30 to 64 years old who were part of the Framingham Offsprin...See More
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July 15 at 9:41am
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Gregg Sheehan I cannot find the study right now but a meta analysis showed a 'J' curve related to salt intake and mortality. Below 2100mg of sodium saw a sharp rise in all cause mortality while the other way was a much less steep curve and you had to get above 8000mg of sodium to reach the same level of mortality.
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July 15 at 10:04am
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Gregg Sheehan http://rainystreets.wikity.cc/salt-j-curve/
Salt J-Curve – Rainy Streets
Salt J-Curve [...] Both low-salt and high-salt diets are correlated with increased mortality. Last…
RAINYSTREETS.WIKITY.CC
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July 15 at 10:10am
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Gregg Sheehan I should underline that my blood pressure of 118/78 is in spite of being 63 years old and in spite of taking 1-2 tsp of salt in water daily. So, for me at least, the salt relieves cramps and doesn't result in higher BP. High BP is an indication of an underlying condition that might want to be treated, be it stress from financial or personal worries, or a high carbohydrate, low fat diet. To the best of my knowledge, there is no significant risk involved in keeping salt consumption between 2 and 5 teaspoons per day - whereas their may be a risk in going outside those numbers. BTW, measurement of salt consumption in studies is not like a lot of those where you are trying to rely on a person's recollection via food questionaires - it is usually worked out by what they actually excrete.
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July 15 at 10:39am
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Michael Frieze I think your argument is that it is a better idea to stay within a certain range that is known to be successful based on the information you have available to you. Is this a faithful representation of your argument?

My argument is the information you...See More
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July 15 at 10:58amEdited
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Gregg Sheehan That was probably a fair representation of my position. With the addition that my cramps go ballistic if I don't keep it within my range. It may be that I could go through a period of no salt and get to a point where I don't get cramps, however I don't...See More
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July 15 at 11:24am
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Michael Frieze Right, but it isn't like I continued to have cramps for long periods of times. I went through painful plants for a few weeks and then I was fine after that. I haven't had a single cramp in many years. 

Sure, it might be dangerous for someone that is ...See More
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July 15 at 1:05pmEdited
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Michael Frieze Who knows, in the end it might not matter much at all as long as you are getting enough potassium too.
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July 15 at 1:06pm
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Gregg Sheehan Considering that we have almost unlimited ability to excrete sodium as long as we don't limit water, the body seems quite able to get rid of any excess. There is no doubt that we do need some and many may be able to get enough through their food. One article I've read seems quite comprehensive and I'll link to it in the next comment.
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July 15 at 1:14pm
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Michael Frieze Do you think it is possible that excreting too much sodium is a little hard on the kidneys and skin?
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July 15 at 1:18pm
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Michael Frieze Obviously, we need some amount of sodium, but the question is how much is really needed? At this point, after all these years, it seems to me that there is enough in steak alone. But, lets just assume that it is because I am young for now. I am okay with that.
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July 15 at 1:19pm
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Michael Frieze I also noticed that I get pimples when I increase sodium too. My skin feels gross, I feel lethargic, my sweat taste salty, and salt taste gross (which is subjective).

Bear also mentioned that salt interferes with fat metabolism, but idk how true that is or really even care that much. I don't seem to have a problem with that regardless of sodium intake. ...See More
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July 15 at 1:25pm
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Gregg Sheehan I tend to side with the writer and that we can be completely guided by our gustatory senses. (As with water, fat and protein.)
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July 15 at 1:38pm
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Michael Frieze I think your senses are relative to the overall internal biological situation. 

For example, when I first cut sodium out, I hated the taste of meat without salt. I kept it going and eventually I started to notice that the meat already had a salty tast...See More
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July 15 at 1:52pmEdited
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Esmée La Fleur I think studies of plant eaters do not apply to non-plants eaters.
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July 16 at 12:02pm
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Esmée La Fleur And modern day hunter-gathers have been found to eat 500-700 mg of sodium per day from food. This is organic sodium present in the food itself, not inorganic sodium as found in salt (sodium chloride).
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July 16 at 12:04pm
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Wendy McKeever Lack I was on BP meds for >10 years. Was off them within 8 weeks on LCHF.
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July 15 at 2:29am
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Ariane Hélène Cool thanks for sharing and I'm glad you don't need medication anymore!
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July 15 at 2:29am
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Alexandros Trantallidis Volek and Phinney have a detailed explanation in their book why a low carb diet can reduce blood pressure and they present all relevant studies. To make a quick summary: when you eat high carb you hold more water in the body and also stimulate insulin ...See More
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July 15 at 4:03am
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Ariane Hélène Thanks I'll definitely look into it!
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July 15 at 8:00am
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Elena Carter One of the first things that becomes normal on ZC/LC/keto is blood pressure. When I complete health questionnaires for patients, the most common health conditions given by men over 40-50 are high blood pressure and high cholesterol, and for both condit...See More
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July 15 at 3:58pm
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Ariane Hélène Thanks for your input!
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July 15 at 6:59pm
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Esmée La Fleur Not enough potassium is one the primary causes of high blood pressure as is high insulin. Zero Carb will normalize insulin, and your father can use no-salt or a similar product to increase his potassium intake.
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July 16 at 12:01pm
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Don Bibeau I never take supplements but my borderline high blood pressure (140/90) actually got better (very close to 120/80) when I started liberally adding salt to my steaks and gb
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July 16 at 6:06pm
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Michael Frieze were you eating only steak with no salt? if so, how long were you doing this?
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July 16 at 6:14pm
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Don Bibeau Michael Frieze , mostly beef (steak, and gb) occasionally chicken or pork. Also usually, 3-4 eggs most days. 
My bp had been borderline for years and years with SAD, the same with LC and ZC. 
Actually saw improvement last couple months with added salt
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July 16 at 6:32pm
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Michael Frieze How long have you been ZC? Are you sure it isn't ZC in general that is improving your BP? 

Not trying to discredit sodium here, it may very well be the answer to your problem, but just trying to see if there are other variables here at play. 

If you are feeling good and your numbers are showing it too, then keep it up! Can't go wrong with that.
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ReplyJuly 16 at 10:02pm
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Dawn Falsetti I had the low bp turned out I had Hypoaldosteronism-- take more salt.
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